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Sadhguru - Intelect vs Inntelligence


Jaggi Vasudev (Sadhguru) / Javed Akhtar / Shoma Chaudhury
ー A debate at THiNK 2012 ー

1:05 【Shoma Chaudhury】 
I like to start with you, Sadhguru.
You have a passion for snakes, SUVs, bikes, helicopters, adventure, travel,
you have a flair for entrepreneurship, your passion is the construction business,
and you are Sadhguru.
Can you spell out what is the core philosophy of your foundation of your practices
and how do these two aspects of you sit together?

1:37 【Sadhguru】
Good evening, everyone.
First of all, let me correct that I have no passion for snakes or SUVs or helicopters.
I'm just passionate about life and just about anything that I do.
It's not about this or that. I do not know how to do anything without absolute
involvement. So passion is a word that people attach, but it's just that just
about anything that I do, I do not know how to do it without absolute
involvement, because it's only with involvement one knows life. It doesn't
matter whether you're doing business or art or music, spirituality, doesn't matter
what you're doing. If you're not involved, you'll miss it all. So I'm just involved.
These are all names that people attached. There's only a few things that people
have seen.

2:31 【Shoma Chaudhury】
Well, you know, I'll come back to this strand of materialism sitting
well with spirituality. But before that, you know, you say that what you... your
philosophy is not even a teaching, it's a technology, and it just works. What is
that? Can you articulate it, and what does it mean when they doesn't have to be
personal endeavor, one doesn't have to be alone or, but you can just achieve a
technology?

2:57 【Sadhguru】
So this is... there is no philosophy, because generally
philosophies are just fantastic explanations for those aspects of life
which can never be explained. So they essentially we're here.
Whatever you think about it is just your thought. But the fact of it is
if you look at this as a human being, this human mechanism is the most
sophisticated technology on the planet. Isnt it?
Whatever other gadgets that we have they all come out of it, out of this one.
This is the most sophisticated mechanism.
You see today people are deeply engrossed in their iPhones, but what would I?
This is the thing. This is the gadget. If you pay enough attention to this,
you would understand how to operate this at its highest possible mode.
So the whole process that we refer to as spiritual is just this,
so that this mechanism attains its fullest capability and possibility
that it doesn't just operate in a minimalistic way. So that's why it's a
technology. Philosophies have happened because of the misunderstanding of the
technology. Otherwise, essentially only technologies were transmitted you might
if you look back and see. There were no teachings in this country. There were
only methods. Methods. How to do it. How to make this happen at its highest possible
level. So once we enter this fear, being a subjective dimension of life,
you have a body, you have a mind, you have emotions, you have energy supporting this
all these three. So when we handle all these four dimensions, some of it may not
come under the purview of rudimentary logic and reason that a lot of people
subscribe to. Because of that rudimentary level of reasoning, they think it's
beyond reason. It is very much in reason if you probe into it we can go into it.

5:05 【Shoma Chaudhury】
Yeah... but in fact you know before we go further with that, in the past you said,
yes that you know, in India there's always been methods; there hasn't been
teachings. But the purpose of spirituality was to some extent to
disconnect people from desire from materialism to understand the limits of
that. Why is it that with the Isha foundation's philosophy,
just self-actualization is the goal, you know, expressing yourself to
the maximum you can, rather than to understand the finiteness of that?

5:42 【Sadhguru】
Say yeah, this understanding that spiritual means you have to disassociate you with
desire. Let's understand it this way. If your desire for food, if you desire for
money, if you desire for a piece of land on this planet, if this is considered
greed, now you want to know the very source of creation. This is super great,
isn't it? So where is the question of dissociating?
It is evolution of desire. Not associating with desire. Your desire is
evolved. When you are a five-year-old child what you desired for completely
fell away when you were 10. What you desire for when you were 10 completely
was meaningless when you're 15. What you desired as 15 when you're 30 doesn't
make any sense. So your desire is evolving.
If you evolve very slowly, you will go at this pace. If you go beyond your
experience and think beyond and reason beyond where you are right now as you
sit here, if you understand that after all you and me are mortal whatever we
may do, when you understand you are mortal, naturally the question of what is beyond
where did I come from, where will I go, this is naturally in the purview of
human intellect. See if you are not given ready-made answers by somebody, it is
very very natural that every human intellect will inquire: where did I come
from, where will I go, what is the nature of my existence. So this is not
dissociating from desire. This is just evolving your desire to a new
possibility.

7:16 【Shoma Chaudhury】
I'm going to bring Javad sir into the conversation in a bit...
Javed sir, I just want to prove this a little more along...

7:27 【Javed Akhtar】
Take your time. I'll finish it.

7:28 【Shoma Chaudhury】
Sadhguru-ji, Javed said this is called theatrical diamond you've got a clap for
saying nothing actually
Sakuragi you know we we've called our session five stars fixes because and the
reason I'm saying this is because perhaps it's something that one doesn't
understand that to be a part of your course which actually a lot of my
friends have taken and I must admit that it does transform them the breathing
techniques they come back , people but it costs a lot how is your spirituality
your technique your old technology is not available for the pool I want you to
understand this 70% of visa Foundation's work is in
rural India where it's 100% free and is robbing you to keep that 70% actor
so you need to understand this we charge one way in the United States another way
in UK another way in Lebanon anna devane Zelenka another way in India one way in
Mumbai one way in there some one way in a local town and in the village it's
really you've got to give your accountants to the government already
and above all the volume of work our volunteers are doing is all funded by
this the amount of medical work free medical work that's happening education
we're involved with about 36,000 children right now actively we're the
largest psychological moment in the country
nowhere in the history of independent India has this happened in any state
Tommy Norris green cover has gone up 7.2% in a matter of eight years with 17
million living trees that we have planted so where does money come from
all this that doesn't answer my question because I of course you do a lot of
rural outreach and one knows that those who do not have money should come and
take it in the village it's free no I I was talking about now the thing is
five-star culture people want air-conditioned rooms people want all
the comfort and they want it free how does it come somebody has to pay for it
to finish my question it's not about you charging the rich which is fine for
their well-being I was asking whether your breathing
techniques your technology of self-actualization whether that is
available to the poor your meditative techniques you know not use I'm talking
about the meditative techniques all the inner engineering programs in the
villages are free 100% free one other question which is about your central
philosophy is to do with yoga and with breathing techniques but there is also
another I would like to dissociate from that word philosophy technology is
connected with breathing techniques but you also believe in the in past life you
know my colleagues spent a week with you at
the foundation and wrote a big piece and he said that their people feel that they
can see disembodied selves that you know your wife you felt was a sister from the
past life you know we've had James Randi here who was shooting through this kind
of faith system and you said something very interesting to my colleague you
know when he was being skeptical about this whole idea of past life and seeing
spirits that are disembodied you said the reason you disbelieve all this is
because your mind is in the UK and Greenwich Mean Time you know and not in
India so is it really about conditioning of minds it is not about conditioning of
minds let's look at it this way when you were born
you were not made like this isn't it you are so small now this much happen how so
what you call as my body is an accumulation accumulation it's just a
piece of planet that you accumulate through the food that you eat what you
call as my mind is a heap of impressions which you also accumulate or a period of
time so your body is an accumulation your mind is an accumulation what you
accumulate at the most you can claim it's yours but you cannot say it's me
isn't it it's like the five percent of the
universe that we understand now one of the scientists will tell you no no I'm
not talking about that say right now whatever you accumulate you can claim
it's yours but you cannot claim it's me isn't it what you accumulate cannot be
you isn't it so you gathered your body you gathered
the whole volume of your mind so what the hell are you never been looked at
isn't it you're making assumptions so your personality your ideologies
everything picked up everything accumulated you can accumulate and keep
it and use it but you can never claim it's mind everybody should get this now
if you don't get it now you'll get it from the maggots
sub-group use you had a you had a Mount of Sinai moment when you were young when
you felt that you were instantly transformed you don't speak of it much
but you also you know you also told people that you would die at 42 but you
didn't so I'm sorry to disappoint you but that again puts all this realm into
you know I mean I'm somebody in the middle zone people who who know me well
always tease me about how I try to be a rationalist but I always believe in the
paranormal but you know there is no precision to it so how you know how do
you square with that what would your deputies say if you said
something you know the paranormal is not empirical so these are all words we keep
on inventing more words for all this this is just lying in the sense now when
you talk about past lives present life I always tell people do not ever believe
these things at the same time do not be a fool and disbelieve it because belief
and disbelief means just this you believe something or you disbelieve
something essentially means you are not straight enough to admit that you do not
know you have not understood the immensity of I do not know because I do
not know is it tremendous possibility only if you see I do not know the
possibility of knowing ever arises in you so this must be clearly demarcated
see the moment you say and religious you refer to yourself as a believer the
moment you refer to somebody as spiritual you refer to him as a seeker
who can see only one who is realized that he does not know can seek if he
thinks he knows why will he see we come to you job itself
now the start for seeking Joe it'sa you have to not be theatrical with me we we
live in a country yeah of great faiths you are part of a creative space that
very often expresses stories through faith
you're a committed rationalist you know if we see the finiteness of faith would
you accept that there's a finiteness to just reason as well first of all I think
before starting any discussion one should always decide on the meaning of
words maybe you mean something by faith and I
am understanding something else what is faith and what is the difference between
faith and belief I believe I remember I believe there is a place called North
Pole I believe that a to P I is a poor country I believe that Germany is a rich
country is it my faith why it is not my faith I'll tell you why it is not by
faith and white with my belief because it is reasonable anything any belief
which is devoid of logic reason rational evidence witness that is faith
anything which is devoid of all the logic all the reason all the ration all
the witness all the evidence that have failed and I really wonder what is the
difference between faith and his stupidity because that is it has to have
the same definition I am willing to I am willing to accept belief but it has to
have some rationale some reason if you don't have any you disarm me from reason
logic now when you say that whatever our mind
is it's accumulated my body is accumulated that is not me it is like
faith that as long as you can peel the onion you are not finding the onion he
is a skill by the onion this accumulation this accumulation is me if
you eradicate this accumulation I don't exist the job Javed Saab
I think I should respond to this okay
now you're being in Nagpur right now for sure is you believe that you being in
Goa right now is a reality you bitch you better grasp Sat guru ji just give me a
moment there's a reverberation here and be country like your each other could
you just turn the speakers towards us or maybe give Satguru G another mic because
we could not that I can't in the fandom I can't even hear me
I I don't know about the battle between faith and reason but width certainly has
its place in society probably the microphones are arranged in
such a way because anyway even if you hear you might understand thanks for the
compliments of guys 3 the yeah so it will have come on man
so now I'll repeat for you you believing that you're in Nagpur is for sure
believe but you're in Goa is a reality whether you believe it or you don't
believe it that's how it is so there is a difference between reality and belief
if you think whatever you believe is true I want you to understand we can
make you believe just about anything if you work hard enough on you we can make
you believe anything and when you believe just about anything that is what
we are referring to as fate or it's passing off as religion or faith will
come to this now let me be the moderator
the people in the audience may I really shall not be corrected because it is not
based on an energy may I retain the aesthetics may I retain the aesthetics
of this session I really don't need anybody telling me that I'm not going to
let him talk I will let him talk can we please keep the aesthetics of this alive
so so this whole presumption and the way this is going is coming from a certain
fundamental presumption because even when I met Javed Sahab last time he was
telling me that some guru told him not to use his mind I do not know which go
to set this one thing is clear the advice has been taken seriously
now itself I take nfinity taken in signature I promise you Guruji I have
never taken any guru seriously I have I have not taken any guru seriously I
promise you that in the rich tradition in the rich tradition of the
argumentative Indians yeah it remained with the argument it never
got personal both of you so I just wanted to come back job itself to this
whole issue of of the finiteness of a reason you know we just saw Ramanujan
for instance he was intuitive he didn't know how he arrived at at that Matt but
he arrived at it I have absolutely no argument with the fact that reason is
the highest condition of man as we understand it but is there not space for
something beyond our empirical understanding course but there is no
hero around it there is nothing like it spiritual about it when you look at the
fan and that the plan is running on full speed you can't see the blades it
doesn't mean there are no planes you know when you think very quickly you may
not see the reason but when you will sit back and analyze it if the conclusion is
right then there is a logical step behind it you have not seen it at that
moment because your conscious mind is not the only mind you have many parts of
the mind you lose a key and you try to remember you can't and then you're
talking to somebody else and so suddenly you remember where you have kept the key
because a part of your brain was working on it so brain is a very complicated
machine mind is the most sophisticated computer on in this universe at the
moment so you have to understand the functioning if Rama Rajyam understood it
he understood it in a language which he knew why he did not understand in
Chinese know Hebrew that is not was ultimately what will come will come from
your mind you are nothing but your mind and if that is very educated you don't
exist but Ramanujan actually believed that the goddess was giving him that
intuition how do you reconcile that would you say that he was something I
mean after all he was a human being so what he wouldn't be right all the time
saguru before I come back to you Javed seven another function of faith is you
know in its in its refined form not as religion not as public religion but as
faith can sometimes be the impulse for also the most noble of human endeavor
whether we heart no doubt about it the faith can make you do wonderful things
and the worst thing possible these suicide bombers are people of faith if
they would have been reasonable they wouldn't have done that but but equally
job itself faith is a blind power faith paralyzes your mind and now you are
capable of doing something exceptionally good and something exceptionally bad but
you are out of control you can go either way
what about the ultra rationalist the Communists the Stalinist regimes no no
no they are not rational is they are communism they have faith they believe
in communism they I am not only against religion with spiritualism which is the
debris of religion I am I am against v if communism is your faith then you are
as bad as a religious person that's well put sir
so what do you live with then if you don't live with a belief system what do
you live with yeah you know you're talking of extremities but what about
how about common sense
nope it'll do for the moment I'm going to come back job itself with a
scientific question for you which is about stories human beings need stories
to live with you know we've met a lot of scientists a lot of astrophysicists even
in science there is the idea of the story I don't know much about it and if
you question me too much I'll falter but you know the universe professors
organization was telling us that we understand only 5% of the universe
there's 95% we don't understand and we both met Richard Dawkins in Jaipur
earlier this year and he was suggesting that outside of this universe there
could be multiverses now that is not something we know it is a belief in in
something that is not a believe it is a guess maybe maybe not know it's a story
you live with why can't we live with other stories in the mean time which
give people a sense of certitude in their life a sense of solace you see
what is the problem that as long as you have curiosity as long as and he said
very rightly and I totally agree with him that you should be humble enough to
accept that there are many things that you don't know and only then you
research what is wrong with religions that they know everything they can tell
you how to make a universe in four easy lessons they can they will tell you
where ever you were before you were born and where will you go after your death
and so on so they have all the answers does it the problem
Sakura gee that's so that's you know when you said that essentially the
spiritual person is a seeker why is it that gurus give the answers I don't know
but you guru gave an answer I haven't met one like that if you've met they're
all the wrong ones I couldn't help it no go to ever give an answer gurus only
gave methods to deepen your process I asked you what your method was so now
we're talking about thought and the event itself is called think so let me
let's just look at this your thought your thought is essentially coming from
the information that is already there in your mind the data that is there in your
mind it's complex but it is within the limited data that you have how did you
gather this data this data you gathered through the agencies of five senses by
seeing by hearing smelling tasting and touching this is the way it's gone into
you these are the five instruments which are taking in all the data in your
wakefulness and sleep this data is being gathered all the time even in your sleep
in deep sleep if I say something we can hypnotize you and make you remember that
actually because even in sleep you're recording but it is only through these
five senses these five senses are not reliable in the sense if I touch this
table it would my hand will tell me it's cool
but if I lowered my body temperature and touch it
my hand will tell me it's warm so it doesn't say anything about that it only
tells me the information that is necessary for my survival if survival is
all you're seeking these five senses are okay but if you're seeking something
beyond survival you need to expand the dimension of your perception so the
whole spiritual process is about how to expand your perception because only what
you perceive is life rest is just imagination if you want to be in touch
with reality you have to enhance your perception and
just assuming what see this thing when across the history when people
believe the planet is flat somebody said it's around he got killed
okay now everybody thought they can only walk somebody says I can fly he was
almost killed so this has happened continuously
because people believing whatever I do not know cannot exist is the crown of
ignorance Javed thought that's that's a volley that I hand to you you know that
at every let every point in history the limits of reality has been pushed by
those who imagine or have faith in something that doesn't yet exist not at
all not at all first of all it's not I mean the first thing if spiritualist
will do will try to shake your confidence in these five senses that you
have only then he can control you now if you think that you will believe on any
other thing then take a person do an operation on him disconnect him with his
brain and then let us see how he expands his personality whatever expansion
happens happens in your mind and you cannot undermine it and whoever suggests
that that is to be undermined it's playing the very dangerous game with you
that's what then you will not have any discretion how you will you decide
whether whatever he is saying is right or wrong and whatever he's saying is you
he's using his brain he doesn't want you to use your brain
from there this concept um having come from their from their testimony it has
come from the mind even if you think that the mind is not everything that to
have come from the mind if you don't just mind how do you trust this part
okay Javed sub yeah you said the five senses as a writer as an artist as a
human being yeah don't you sometimes have a sixth
sense about something please understand you see there are like between countries
there are no man lines between India and Pakistan between India and China they do
men feel they in you between your subconscious and between your conscious
mind there is a woman land and what happens that if you rely only on your
current thinking on your mind a brain is also like a house your mind your
conscious mind is your living room but then you have other rooms you have a
teeth you have bedrooms you have basements within your brain when you
relax and you allow the other part of your mind to take over then your
conscious mind and your subconscious they work together in partnership and
ultimately something comes which comes from you move comes from your mind but
from that part of mine which more often than not you are not using that song but
it is the mind ultimately
now can it we were talking about stories can I say his story stories a Nutella
story yeah sure please but just speak a bit louder yes on a certain day a lady
went to sleep in her sleep she had a dream in her dream she saw a hunk of a
man standing there staring at her he started coming closer and closer he came
so close she could even feel his breath and she trembled not in fear and then
she asked what will you do to me the man said well lady it's your dream now what
happens in your mind is just essentially you dream just being in a constant state
of flowing thoughts all the time 24 hours thoughts are flowing this is not
this does not signify intelligence this suggests diarrhea mental diarrhea
constantly it is on and on and on now if one has made an effort one has strived
to look beyond the firmament of the mind one would know other dimensions simply
denying that nothing like that exists because I do not know it is I don't know
he doesn't need comments security but you just said that the five senses are
unreliable but just to come back to that license is being unreliable let me come
to this right now what your vision visual sense
understands his light many of the creatures on the planet
understand it as darkness isn't it so you sit with an owl and start an
argument as to which is light and which is darkness you will end up with an
endless argument so who is right you insist you're right but that is the
whole problem people insisting that their right is the whole problem on the
planet but Sadhguru if if the whole point of your technology
to make people actual eyes themselves why in the modern world is there still
cult creation why does your photograph adorn every devotees who or every
practitioners home why do they not just take the technology and become
independent spirits themselves so yeah you don't mind if you don't mind if a
rockstars picture is in somebody's house okay but people he lives a bad life
he is drugged out but you don't mind if a film stars picture is there it doesn't
matter if the 12 girls from the Kingfisher calender don't your house you
do not matter but you have something with me what is the problem
I'll tell you what the rock
yeah i'll tell you i'll Javad some i'll come to you but i'll tell you what my
problem with that is is that by and large what Javed Saab was saying earlier
is that with the following of a guru even if the Guru doesn't want it there
is a giving up of oneself there's a subjugation of one's own thinking to a
you know to a guru and that takes people sometimes to very dark places you know
you're willing to kill for a guru you may not be willing to kill for the film
star but they do they don't they do you come in Tamil not one see people will
kill for the film star you know if a star is having a wonderful time
you don't resent if a rock star is having a wonderful time I mean he's
doing good in his vocation in his profession
you don't reason if a guru is going put in his profession is having a good time
why should you return it should not definitely what's your problem
sure now this is this is the operation of rationalism the equation should hold
good let them have a good time job
Sat guru ji one quick question I think my colleague is going to ring the bell
any minute you know I saw a film recently in America made by a young man
and it's called the truth - the true story of a fake guru he dressed himself
up as a guru and he went and he met a whole lot of people he listened to their
sorrows he listened to their stories he put three pictures in front of them he
brought them into this sense of ecstasy and elation and they began to transform
themselves they completely believed in him and they began to follow him they
felt that they arrived at a safe harbor at the end of the film and they're being
filmed through this whole journey at the end of it know himself you know about
him he reveals himself he's just a young man from connect from Phoenix what is
the answer to that see this is why I want you to make a distinction between
faith and a spiritual process faith is just a set of beliefs spiritual process
begins only when you realize that you do not know the fundamentals of your
existence seeking begins when a seeking begins and
you find your sense organs and your logic only takes you to a certain point
and it's not willing to help you beyond that then when you come to your dead end
you know there is something beyond but you're at a dead end then you will want
an or process so then somebody who has experienced it will offer a process this
is all it is now in society it might have fire found all kinds of distortions
you picking up a bad apple and talking about apples
consumption in this universe in this earth is really becoming something
unsustainable what kind of spirituality is it that does not talk about the
finite end of consumption you know even as a even as a method even as a process
that is not part of Asia foundation at all see we are always trying to curtail
human aspirations it'll never work if I tell somebody don't smoke don't do this
don't know that they will not do that they'll anyway continue to do it or
other kinds of Campbell's compulsions will take them over but if you teach
them a method through which they're able to manage the chemistry of who they are
today there is substantial medical and scientific evidence it is no more belief
system there is substantial scientific and medical evidence today research has
gone into this University of California has done an enormous research and the
simple shambhavi muhammad's are the basic practice that we teach three
months of practice you're the neuronal regeneration rejuvenation in your brain
is two hundred and forty-one percent more than the average okay there any
number of things like this now the chemical soup that you are you can
either make it very blissful or miserable so if you are blissful by your
own nature then all the compulsiveness will naturally drop whether you're going
shopping or you're digging of the planet or you're seeking something else
essentially it is just this a human being is what longing to be a human
being is longing to be something more than what he is right now
but if that more happens he wants more if you really look at it a human being
cannot settle unless he has all of it if you want all of it approaching it
through physical means is a hopeless means the design is fine but the method
is hopeless so spiritual process means you have offered him the right method
right process for the same design job it's a view on jealousy I really find it
highly amusing it's very interesting that it is in religion it is in
spirituality the moment they find something in
science which is compatible they start respecting science they said look now
even the science has accepted it but the moment science is opposing them then it
is not credible at all and it is the history there was a question which I
missed that time we have to understand through spiritualism that why we are in
this universe what are we doing here why have we come here I don't want to
commend about anybody else's presence but guru ji I know why I am in this
universe and the reason is unprintable and the reason is unprintable ha ha
it is a pompous question that why I am in this universe it is a pompous
question what I am doing here have you ever thought of a mosquito
why did mosquito is here in this world why this package is here telling as far
as life quality is concerned there is no difference between a rotten and a human
being between a mosquito and a human being the only difference is the mind
and this is the difference they want to eradicate
obviously this has no relevance to whatever I'm speaking it looks like it's
not even being heard so the thing is the significant aspect of that the
significant aspect of human life is that human life is replete with possibilities
which other creatures are not capable of every other creature on this planet is
fulfilled when its survival process is fulfilled there is something about a
human being that it does not settle with survival what is called as human begins
only after survival is taken care of so the longing to be an endless expansion
cannot be settled by the simplicity of thought thought is just a product of the
data that we have gathered and whatever you may know it is still too limited
that much is established by science so about science and spiritual process ever
being head-on with each other such a thing has never happened it is just that
you have not been exposed to the right things as I said earlier you eat a bad
apple and you make conclusions about all apples it's an unfortunate reality of
one's life I'm going to have to end it at that
my takeaway from this are two things one that in India we've had a glorious
tradition of the argumentation between men of faith and men of reason there
were the navaratna in King Akbar Court and the big takeaway that I think both
of them will agree with is that we can first learn to operate with common sense
thank you so much for listening

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Author:ゆうこ
◆ プロフィールは下記のHPに記載しています。
HP: 絵本・翻訳・原始意識
ブログ①: 聞かせてよ、英語のお話・わらべ歌
ブログ②: 心/身体/エコロジー
ブログ③: YouTube 動画で覚えよう英語の歌
ブログ④: 歌の古里

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